Dangers Of Marijuanas

[Lisa]

indians (american and india- indians) do drugs in their religious ceremonies. are you concerned about them?

Yes, shouldn’t alter your mind, it’s wrong.

tell me how altering ones mind is not victimless.

The person altering their mind is a victim of their foolish actions.

what one does to his or her body is no one elses business. id also make a case for these "mind altering drugs" to be very beneficial. matter of fact, colonel valerio has already posted several articles about this (psilocybin mushrooms) from the mainstream medical establishment of all people who are finally coming to this conclusion.

I suppose it’s none of my business but it makes me sad to think of people altering their minds.
Well, now they are beneficial...I don’t think that those drugs have changed from when I knew them to be bad.

i see your POV on this-- how its best to keep oneself pure and natural, to be non-GMOed and non-transhuman. i am in agreement. but these mind altering drugs (DMT, mushrooms, ayhuasca, etc.) ARE natural and have been used safely by humans for many thousands of years. you say these are 'bad' drugs. i say they are 'good' drugs.

I don’t think you do see my pov because it’s necessarily about keeping oneself pure and natural but to not alter one’s mind with mind altering drugs.

Those are bad drugs, and just because they are natural doesn’t mean that they are good for you.

the bigger issue here is you telling someone else what to do and determining the subjective "good/bad" label for everyone.

I think the bigger issue here is to be concerned for others well being and doing drugs is not in someone’s best interest.

are prescription drugs ok for you?

I guess it depends on what it does and what it’s used for.

 

[Lurker]

The person altering their mind is a victim of their foolish actions

When I smoke a bowl after work, it makes my hands and feet feel better. It also calms my thoughts and helps me leave work at work. Please explain how I am foolishly victimizing myself.

 

[Lurker]

Yes, shouldn’t alter your mind, it’s wrong.

Why? Says who?

I suppose it’s none of my business but it makes me sad to think of people altering their minds.
Well, now they are beneficial...I don’t think that those drugs have changed from when I knew them to be bad

They were never bad. It was just your dogma.

I think the bigger issue here is to be concerned for others well being and doing drugs is not in someone’s best interest.

What makes you so sure you know what is in someone's best interest?

I guess it depends on what it does and what it’s used for.

Morphine sulfate; for acute or chronic pain?

 

[shankara]

"Drugs" is a category of things created by governments to designate both dangerous and harmful substances and genuinely useful medicines. Saying that you are against drugs is like saying you're against dogs because somebody has a bloodthirsty rottweiler.

Ganja was actually banned at a time when it was predominantly used by Mexican immigrants. Apart from the racist motive, the governments want to keep the lid on things which can potentially alter people's way of thinking and see through the lies and propaganda with which we are deceived. Ok, so obviously if you abuse marijuana you're not likely to have a big political awakening but if you treat it with respect it can really give you insight into some of the evil around. The Rastas actually believe it is a special form of incense which drives away all the sinful energies of the End Times.

Anyway, before thinking about whether or not these substances are useful it's necessary to drop the whole category "Drugs" which is just an invention of governments and legalism, it's a conceptual distortion hiding the realities of these substances.

It's abundantly clear that marijuana, mushrooms, ayahuasca and other plant medicines have a multitude of potential medical uses. Even "recreational" use for many people is a form of self-medication which keeps them off of chemical psychiatric medications which have very severe side effects.

I've seen some of the darkness of drug addiction, people hooked on ketamine, heroin junkies. This isn't a pretty thing and talking about these kind of substances is a whole different question (though even in these cases it would probably work out better to legalize and regulate them, treating addiction as a medical issue).

But to put marijuana etc in the same category as these things is reactionary, almost wilful ignorance.

 

[Lisa]

When I smoke a bowl after work, it makes my hands and feet feel better. It also calms my thoughts and helps me leave work at work. Please explain how I am foolishly victimizing myself.

By thinking you need that to calm down rather than pray or do something that doesn’t alter your mind.

 

[Lisa]

Why? Says who?

They were never bad. It was just your dogma.

What makes you so sure you know what is in someone's best interest?

Morphine sulfate; for acute or chronic pain?

I think it’s wrong, I don’t do it because I do think it’s wrong. You are changing the makeup of your mind and I think it helps a person less able to distinguish from right and wrong which is wrong.

They were never bad. It was just your dogma.

Yes actually, when I was in elementary school we watched films on how bad drugs were for you..so they were known as bad at one point.

What makes you so sure you know what is in someone's best interest?

It is in people best interest not to be on drugs and have their minds altered and you won’t be able to convince me that it’s alright.

Morphine sulfate; for acute or chronic pain?

I’ve had morphine once and can see how someone would like that to shut out the pain..but people don’t really need to have that kind of pain relief long term.

 

[Lisa]

Saying that you are against drugs is like saying you're against dogs because somebody has a bloodthirsty rottweiler.

Really?

 

[shankara]

By thinking you need that to calm down rather than pray or do something that doesn’t alter your mind.

But what exactly is this whole business about "altering the mind"? You pick up and read a newspaper and you're altering your mind, just in a way which conforms with normative reality. Much of what we are is socially constructed anyway, our way of thinking isn't something independent and unique, it's conditioned by the society around us. Anything that can help us to step back and analyze how we are conditioned is more returning to oneself than being "altered".

However you do raise a very interesting point about prayer. If you want to actually grasp how abnormal our everyday way of thinking and perceiving is, try making a retreat doing some contemplative practice, perhaps in silence... In such a situation it becomes quite easy to see how everyday life alienates us from ourselves.

 

[Lisa]

But what exactly is this whole business about "altering the mind"? You pick up and read a newspaper and you're altering your mind, just in a way which conforms with normative reality. Much of what we are is socially constructed anyway, our way of thinking isn't something independent and unique, it's conditioned by the society around us. Anything that can help us to step back and analyze how we are conditioned is more returning to oneself than being "altered".

However you do raise a very interesting point about prayer. If you want to actually grasp how abnormal our everyday way of thinking and perceiving is, try making a retreat doing some contemplative practice, perhaps in silence... In such a situation it becomes quite easy to see how everyday life alienates us from ourselves.

Contemplative practice is also altering your mind by seeking to shut it down, opens you up for something to fill it...that something not being good for your best interest.

Which is why altering your mind is bad, it is not in your best interest to do that. You aren’t really stepping back but checking out.

 

[shankara]

Contemplative practice is also altering your mind by seeking to shut it down, opens you up for something to fill it...that something not being good for your best interest.

Which is why altering your mind is bad, it is not in your best interest to do that. You aren’t really stepping back but checking out.

How do you know that it isn't God who fills it?

 

[shankara]

Contemplative practice is also altering your mind by seeking to shut it down, opens you up for something to fill it...that something not being good for your best interest.

Which is why altering your mind is bad, it is not in your best interest to do that. You aren’t really stepping back but checking out.

"Be still, and know that I am God" (Psalm 46:10)

I would, by the way, count reading the Psalms as a contemplative practice, in that it is a contemplation of the attributes of the Divine Being (not asking something from Him). For a Christian I would also recommend "The Prayer Of The Heart"...

 

[shankara]

Anyway, went a little off topic but there's definitely a link between responsible use of certain plant medicines and contemplative practices, in that both can help us with our neuroses, fears and complexes. EDIT: Even with physical ailments

 

[Lisa]

How do you know that it isn't God who fills it?

God isn’t asking you to empty your mind..

Matthew‬ ‭6:9-13‬ ‭
Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’​

‭‭

 

[Lisa]

Anyway, went a little off topic but there's definitely a link between responsible use of certain plant medicines and contemplative practices, in that both can help us with our neuroses, fears and complexes. EDIT: Even with physical ailments

I wouldn’t do the contemplative prayer..you are asking for trouble there! And not all plants are good for us.

 

[shankara]

I wouldn’t do the contemplative prayer..you are asking for trouble there! And not all plants are good for us.

Sure, there are plants which are poisonous. There are also plants which should under be used with close guidance from an experienced Shaman. However it is rather naive to assume that when the powers that be declared "The War On Drugs" that they were motivated solely by an unselfish desire to improve the condition of society... Even the genuinely bad drugs, the ones which have little benefit and are only escapism, it's pretty clear that a public health rather than repression-judicial way of dealing with them is the best approach.

But I don't think you're understanding my argument. I'm saying that we are all conditioned by the society around us, our minds are not actually independent and free. Setting ourselves free from our conditioning is the way to find our "true selves", you could say "the soul". The soul is not the mind, you get what I'm saying...?

Anyway, the thing is this, Lisa. In order to take a step back and start analyzing your conditioning, which is the first step in setting yourself free from it, you need to be in a state of some stillness where you're not following every thought one after another in a state of distraction. Quietening the mind isn't to force yourself to stop thinking, it's just to observe the thoughts passing through the mind without following up every one of them. This is one way of fighting against temptation because if we struggle like this the thoughts which lead us into doing bad things lose their power over us.

This entering into stillness you can do by contemplative practice, or with the help of certain plants. The thing is that if you have some conditioning which prevents you from doing any kind of contemplative practice, this is a type of conditioning which makes it very difficult to get free from conditioning...

I am in no way against you praying the "Our Father". This is in fact a type of contemplative practise in that you are contemplating the attributes of God and the things which your soul (not your mind) needs. It isn't the same thing as praying "please God give me this and that and make me a very powerful famous rich person"... Which to me, isn't really prayer at all...

 

[Lisa]

Which to me, isn't really prayer at all...

Why? It goes to show a need for God and that’s a good need.

There are also plants which should under be used with close guidance from an experienced Shaman.

That’s not a good idea, totally playing with Fire there and it’s the evil spirits that are gonna win that one.

But I don't think you're understanding my argument. I'm saying that we are all conditioned by the society around us, our minds are not actually independent and free.

You aren’t conditioned by society you are actually under God’s law, that is what you want to be set free from and you can’t be unless you believe Jesus. It’s not as much societal as God put His law in our hearts and that is how we all know right and wrong.

Edit: I don’t pray the Our Father but brought it up because Jesus didn’t instruct us to empty our minds to God, but rather pray about things..use our minds.

 

[shankara]

It’s not as much societal as God put His law in our hearts and that is how we all know right and wrong.

What you mean to say is that you know right from wrong whilst the rest of us who are opposing you are either unaware of the difference between right or wrong, or deliberately working against the plan of God for some kind of motive. Actually, if the law of God is in fact written in all of our hearts, the latter would be the only real possibility, or perhaps some people are too shallow to listen to their heart?

Anyway the phrase that comes to mind for me is: "Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?". You are quite welcome to your beliefs but unless you have some real experience (practical, not solely intellectual) in the matter that you're expressing an opinion on, it seems probable that you wouldn't have a particularly comprehensive understanding of the subject.

You also completely failed to address the majority of the arguments I presented above.

 

[Lisa]

Actually, if the law of God is in fact written in all of our hearts, the latter would be the only real possibility, or perhaps some people are too shallow to listen to their heart?

It has a lot to do with sin.

I have seen drug use wreck peoples lives because they used them...is that good enough for you?

I went to the ones that interested me to respond to...you can repost the ones important to you.

 

[shankara]

It has a lot to do with sin.

I have seen drug use wreck peoples lives because they used them...is that good enough for you?

I went to the ones that interested me to respond to...you can repost the ones important to you.

Yes of course, respond to whichever ones you like, just be aware that they're only a part of what I'm trying to put across.

I mean yeah, look, my own experience with marijuana hasn't been entirely positive, it actually made me quite crazy and I'm still dealing with the results of that craziness right now. I don't smoke at the moment as it happens, but looking back and trying to comprehend things I arrived at the perspective that it wasn't really the herb which was the problem, the problem was my own lack of discipline and lack of respect for the plant.

Actually though, the last time I smoked I had been before in a state of total nihilism and had been for quite a long time - not even apathy or depression but real destructive twisted nihilism, and the plant lifted me out of it. I could almost compare it to the visitation of an angel, it wasn't pleasant or easy, not "recreational", but it really helped to confront my problems.

I've also seen people in very bad states because of psychoactive substances. When I was younger I went through a phase with Ecstasy, mostly, and I didn't really get anything valuable from it but it made my psychological issues quite a lot worse. In my home country there's a lot of people abusing Ketamine, saw some people in pretty bad situations, paranoid etc. Not to mention junkies who lose all interest in life apart from the fix, total escapism.

I've even seen "Brujos" (roughly "sorcerers") who do black magic with the plants or with the plants and chemicals mixed, it's easy for naive people to fall under their spell. Maybe it's true what you say that there's a great danger of dark forces attacking when one is using these things, but I don't think that "it’s the evil spirits that are gonna win that one"...

Ultimately I really think it's essential to drop the whole category "Drugs" before one can arrive at any understanding of this thing. Heroin and Marijuana are totally different things, the former is useless escapism, the latter can be quite the opposite.

 

[Lisa]

I mean yeah, look, my own experience with marijuana hasn't been entirely positive, it actually made me quite crazy and I'm still dealing with the results of that craziness right now. I don't smoke at the moment as it happens, but looking back and trying to comprehend things I arrived at the perspective that it wasn't really the herb which was the problem, the problem was my own lack of discipline and lack of respect for the plant.

Sounds like you want to go back to it..so looking at it that way will help you go back to doing marijuana which was clearly bad for you.

Actually though, the last time I smoked I had been before in a state of total nihilism and had been for quite a long time - not even apathy or depression but real destructive twisted nihilism, and the plant lifted me out of it. I could almost compare it to the visitation of an angel, it wasn't pleasant or easy, not "recreational", but it really helped to confront my problems.

Do you think all the plant did was distract you from it enough that it wasn’t consuming you?

I've even seen "Brujos" (roughly "sorcerers") who do black magic with the plants or with the plants and chemicals mixed, it's easy for naive people to fall under their spell. Maybe it's true what you say that there's a great danger of dark forces attacking when one is using these things, but I don't think that "it’s the evil spirits that are gonna win that one"...

Yes, its true! There are dark forces waiting to hurt your life if you’ll let them, and if you’re not in your right mind...

Ultimately I really think it's essential to drop the whole category "Drugs" before one can arrive at any understanding of this thing. Heroin and Marijuana are totally different things, the former is useless escapism, the latter can be quite the opposite.

It’s all escapism..and its all harmful to you.