The Bible Teaches Terrorism and Killing Infants

[Artful Revealer]

If i had to guess, its not Jews bashing Islam.

Worth noting, Jew's don't really frequent this forum. If they do they're all lurkers. Least I never see arguments here about the Jewish faith put forth by Jews. Might have something to do with the numbers? Muslims and Christians literally make up half the planet while Jews only number some 10 million.

The Torah, is it Jewish or Christian?

 

[Daze]

The Torah, is it Jewish or Christian?

Lets put it this way. Adam was a Muslim.

There is only one, and there will ever only be one God. Alone, indivisible, without partners.

While Abraham, David, Solomon, (insert all 124.000 prophets here) were his slaves and his messengers. You are his slave, i am his slave. Reject or accept, it does not change the facts.

3 books were revealed, the Torah, then the Injeel, finally the Quran. Only the Quran is unchanged today.

I do not know why the Almighty protects the Quran and not his previous books. You can ask him this yourself should you meet.


I know you don't agree with me Art, infact i don't think you ever did, on any issue. So whats the point of this? I thought we agreed to disagree years ago.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Lets put it this way. Adam was a Muslim.

There is only one, and there will ever only be one God. Alone, indivisible, without partners.

While Abraham, David, Solomon, (insert all 124.000 prophets here) were his slaves and his messengers. You are his slave, i am his slave. Reject or accept, it does not change the facts.

3 books were revealed, the Torah, then the Injeel, finally the Quran. Only the Quran is unchanged today.

I do not know why the Almighty protects the Quran and not his previous books. You can ask him this yourself should you meet.


I know you don't agree with me Art, infact i don't think you ever did, on any issue. So whats the point of this? I thought we agreed to disagree years ago.

I have no idea who you are. Forgive me if I should.

That said, let’s stick to official history which doesn’t consider the Quran unchanged nor the Torah as Islamic literature. Is it Jewish or Christian?

 

[Daze]

I have no idea who you are. Forgive me if I should.

That said, let’s stick to official history which doesn’t consider the Quran unchanged nor the Torah as Islamic literature. Is it Jewish or Christian?

Well, its been about 4 years, but since my avatar is pretty much the same I figured you could least guess? You had me on your ignore I remember. Got tired of losing debates i guess? I remember i sent you a pm and it told me i was on your ignore list.

It doesn't matter. Point is i know you well enough that there's nothing i can say that will convince you of anything, so I"m not about to waste my time. You will find out all kinds of truth on judgement day and I'm ok with that. I mean I"m not gonna suffer for what you reject in this life. I will not answer for your sins nor will you be able to answer for mine on the day of regret.

I'm not even gonna acknowledge the history remark. Tarek and Scimi put you away so many times its not even funny. I do admire your resilience though.

Peace Art, may the Creator make the truth abundantly clear to us both and put us on the path that pleases him most.

لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا ٱللَّٰهُ
مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱللَّٰهِ

 

[Artful Revealer]

Well, its been about 4 years, but since my avatar is pretty much the same I figured you could least guess? You had me on your ignore I remember. Got tired of losing debates i guess? I remember i sent you a pm and it told me i was on your ignore list.

It doesn't matter. Point is i know you well enough that there's nothing i can say that will convince you of anything, so I"m not about to waste my time. You will find out all kinds of truth on judgement day and I'm ok with that. I mean I"m not gonna suffer for what you reject in this life. I will not answer for your sins nor will you be able to answer for mine on the day of regret.

I'm not even gonna acknowledge the history remark. Tarek and Scimi put you away so many times its not even funny. I do admire your resilience though.

Peace Art, may the Creator make the truth abundantly clear to us both and put us on the path that pleases him most.

لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا ٱللَّٰهُ
مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱللَّٰهِ

Only started using the ignore function a couple of months ago, so still have no idea who you are. Though, given you’re a Tarek & Scimi groupie, I can’t exclude the possibility I made an exception for you.

Instead of just pulling your dick out with unverifiable claims of past ownage, why not answer a simple question? Since I’m so good at losing debates.

 

[TokiEl]

3 books were revealed, the Torah, then the Injeel, finally the Quran. Only the Quran is unchanged today.

The quran is a dictation from an angel... and that angel is identified in Isaiah 14:12...

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! - NKJV


Isaiah 14 13For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’

 

[Daze]

...

You know what they say about first Impressions.

 

[Artful Revealer]

You know what they say about first Impressions.

View attachment 43596

Ah, I’m starting to suspect a candidate, ie. a formerly open-minded, receptive, agnostic guy who turned into a convinced Muslim apologist zealot in the span of a few weeks, thinking he could start lecturing more knowledgeable people on Islam and geopolitics.

Since your posts reek of amateuristic hubris and now have the additional discomfort of childish Riddler (RIP) like images / memes as a means of getting your point across, I think I’m currently too creeped out to take a public guess.

 

[Gnome]

What is shocking especially to those who do not have a clue, physical (first) death in this world (be of babies, women, or whoever) does
That is the difference from the muslims undertanding, for muslims are only concerned about the physical death and the material world, and they are totally clueless of the second death (of ‘dead in spirit’ like them) and the spiritual salvation through.......

Or maybe, just maybe, it's simply the case that you are clueless about what Islam teaches about eschatology and soteriology.

Just ponder for a second about how ridiculous the belief in God, particularly one that reveals stuff, is if it is not explicitly and implicitly attached to the concept of Salvation, defacto.

As for Islam's eschatology, there is a heaven and hell, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannah
This is Islam 101, it's insane you don't know about it.

Just imagine believing that there is a God and believing that the ground is the end of everything, how many religions teach this? zero.

Believing in Jesus is irrelevant to the supposed conundrum which you have spewed up yourself. Jesus is salvation with extra strings attached. It is God = Salvation + belief in Jesus.
Judaism certainly doesn't need Jesus for salvation, that would be a fundamental contradiction in the nature of God itself (YHWH) as per Abrahamic tradition, Jewish or not.

All you have done is allude to one of the many endless problems with Christianity, the Christian salvation doctrine is fundamentally nonsense, essentially and categorically.
Sacrifice for salvation is an impossibility and an absurdity given all of the preceding Old Testament context. If the righteous people in the Old Testament go to heaven, then Jesus' sacrifice meant nothing. If people go to hell for rejecting Jesus in this life, then Jesus' sacrifice meant nothing. It is an impossible paradox. It could only be solved by some form of universalism wherein Jesus' 'sacrifice' liberates all of creation back to God henceforth making belief and disbelief irrelevant, which is of course a much despised view by most Christians (even in light of the 'problem of evil').

 

[Toulouse]

You will find no verse in the Qur'aan that encourages its followers to kill woman and children. Killing non combatants in war is strictly prohibited. The Qur'aan has many verses prohibiting the pagan arabs from burying female infants alive yet the Bible supports killing woman and children. Here is the evidence.

1 Samuel 15.3. "Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel din opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, fbut kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey".

Christian author George Boyd has a book called God at War wherein he tries to defend this verse by saying that infants were killed because if they grew up they may worship demons and fall into idol worship. In others words the Bible supports terrorism and Christian authors are also in support of it and try to justify it the same way ISIS does.

And what did the sheep and camels do wrong??? Wow just wow.

You will find no verse in the Holy Bible that condones the killing of babies. The mere fact that it's in there does not mean that it is being taught as acceptable.

The quote from 1 Samuel 15:3 does not come close to condoning terrorism. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not a terrorist. He's God...I Am...and all of this is His Game and His Rules. Good enough for me.

 

[Axl888]

Or maybe, just maybe, it's simply the case that you are clueless about what Islam teaches about eschatology and soteriology.

Just ponder for a second about how ridiculous the belief in God, particularly one that reveals stuff, is if it is not explicitly and implicitly attached to the concept of Salvation, defacto.

As for Islam's eschatology, there is a heaven and hell, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannah
This is Islam 101, it's insane you don't know about it.

Just imagine believing that there is a God and believing that the ground is the end of everything, how many religions teach this? zero.

Believing in Jesus is irrelevant to the supposed conundrum which you have spewed up yourself. Jesus is salvation with extra strings attached. It is God = Salvation + belief in Jesus.
Judaism certainly doesn't need Jesus for salvation, that would be a fundamental contradiction in the nature of God itself (YHWH) as per Abrahamic tradition, Jewish or not.

All you have done is allude to one of the many endless problems with Christianity, the Christian salvation doctrine is fundamentally nonsense, essentially and categorically.
Sacrifice for salvation is an impossibility and an absurdity given all of the preceding Old Testament context. If the righteous people in the Old Testament go to heaven, then Jesus' sacrifice meant nothing. If people go to hell for rejecting Jesus in this life, then Jesus' sacrifice meant nothing. It is an impossible paradox. It could only be solved by some form of universalism wherein Jesus' 'sacrifice' liberates all of creation back to God henceforth making belief and disbelief irrelevant, which is of course a much despised view by most Christians (even in light of the 'problem of evil').

Romans 1:22 - Professing to be wise, they become fools...

 

[Gnome]

Romans 1:22 - Professing to be wise, they become fools...

So after spewing ignorance and then struggling for over four days to reply to my post, you just reply with an ad hominem in the form of a new testament verse.

 

[billy t]

You will find no verse in the Holy Bible that condones the killing of babies. The mere fact that it's in there does not mean that it is being taught as acceptable.

The quote from 1 Samuel 15:3 does not come close to condoning terrorism. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not a terrorist. He's God...I Am...and all of this is His Game and His Rules. Good enough for me.

Um....the verse says to kill babies. Not just one baby but any baby from that tribe. Sounds like terrorrism does it not? Also there are other verses that say to smash their heads against the rock and that the one who kills babies is blessed. If this is not terrrorism then there is no terrorism on the face of the Earth!

 

[Axl888]

So after spewing ignorance and then struggling for over four days to reply to my post, you just reply with an ad hominem in the form of a new testament verse.

The truth hurts doesnt it?

Hebrews 4:13 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the heart.

 

[Toulouse]

Um....the verse says to kill babies. Not just one baby but any baby from that tribe. Sounds like terrorrism does it not? Also there are other verses that say to smash their heads against the rock and that the one who kills babies is blessed. If this is not terrrorism then there is no terrorism on the face of the Earth!

Fair enough on the quote. But it's God's Universe - he can do what he wants. Take it up with him. To say that God is a "terrorist" is at best anachronistic.

 

[Gnome]

The truth hurts doesnt it?

Hebrews 4:13 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the heart.

Arrogance is not a virtue.

You may be a smart aleck but quoting a random book from the new testament doesn't actually make you smart, virtuous, nor does it get you off the hook for spewing ignorance.

 

[Axl888]

Arrogance is not a virtue.

You may be a smart aleck but quoting a random book from the new testament doesn't actually make you smart, virtuous, nor does it get you off the hook for spewing ignorance.

Quoting wikipedia in regard to islam eschatology does not make you smart either... go and do more research and tell me the definitive eschatology of islam...good luck

 

[Gnome]

Quoting wikipedia in regard to islam eschatology does not make you smart either... go and do more research and tell me the definitive eschatology of islam...good luck

And so now you're making a genetic fallacy and ignoring the contents of the article. The Qur'an speaks about eschatology (alongside theology and ontology) in almost every Surah of the Qur'an, there are chapters dedicated to the subject within Hadith collections and are hundreds of books written on the subject. Your obvious lack of research cannot be compensated by being a smug smart alack.

I can tell you're not a person who is a good reader if anything, so I would advise you to start small if you actually are going to learn about the subject.

Eschatology: Islamic Eschatology | Encyclopedia.com

ESCHATOLOGY: ISLAMIC ESCHATOLOGY In every area of religious life, the scriptural religions have developed along courses charted between the constraints and potentialities of their sacred texts and the expectations of the popular imagination. Nowhere has this process been more evident than in the...

www.encyclopedia.com

I could link you many things but I would be wasting my time if I didn't first know that you'd actually read them.

Quoting wikipedia in regard to islam eschatology

Why wouldn't I? you did say before:

for muslims are only concerned about the physical death and the material world, and they are totally clueless of the second death (of ‘dead in spirit’ like them) and the spiritual salvation through the grace of God......

Henceforth why I would introduce you to Islamic beliefs on the spiritual realms through the one you emphasis the most there by inference, being heaven. Jannah is heaven.
If you know anything about the Qur'an at all, you would know that the phrase "gardens beneath which rivers flow" crops up quite a few times in the Qur'an, and refers to heaven, the spiritual garden of eden (something both mentioned both in Jewish belief and alluded to in the new testament).
There is a very direct and comprehensive concept of salvation within Islam, one that doesn't contradict the past in the manner that Christianity strongly does.

The concept of salvation in Islam is one's faith and knowledge (as it's something sought out) in God being correlated with the way one acts in this life. The principle of responsibility and accountability of one's actions is very strongly emphasized.

The Qur'an says in Surah 2:62:
"Indeed the faithful, the Jews,the Christians, and the Sabaeans—those of them who have faith in God and the Last Day and act righteously—they shall have their reward near their Lord, and they will have no fear,nor will they grieve."

There are three main realms outside of the physical realm (the universe) of which are believed in Islam. There is Jannah (heaven), there is Barzakh (the intermediary realm, it is likely what Catholicism got it's inspiration for Purgatory from) and Jahannam (hell).


As I've said, which you took no notice of; the concept of belief in God in any theistic religion innately and explicitly means that salvation is attached to said belief. To have a theistic religion where there is no attainment of life, would be anathema, it would be also an absurdity. There is no theistic religion that doesn't believe in some form of salvation.

I advise you read Surah 17 of the Qur'an a few times, you might have a positive realization: https://al-quran.info/#17

 

[Axl888]

The concept of salvation in Islam is one's faith and knowledge (as it's something sought out) in God being correlated with the way one acts in this life. The principle of responsibility and accountability of one's actions is very strongly emphasized.

Actually the concept of salvation of islam is by works (good deeds) but ask them or ask yourself (if you are muslim), how much good works you/they need to do to enter heaven?

By the way, islams soteriology and eschatology are all based on judaism and the Gospel with a “twist” courtesy of mohammads imagination and by dictation of a certain angel.

 

[Gnome]

Actually the concept of salvation of islam is by works (good deeds)

As you would as a reader of Paul, treat your actions and responsibilities and accountabilities to be a pejorative. It is truly absurd itself because while trying to bash your personal accountability in this life, you also claim to hold moral views and claim that sinning is bad etc. You can't have it both ways.
Whether you like it or not, if our entry into an afterlife depends on us, then what we do in this life is gonna matter, irregardless of your opinion.

Whether you think salvation is defined by faith or "works" (as you term it), it is rather irrelevant to you because it is something that only God knows, not you. If you claim to know this, then you claim to be God.
However though, in the new testament, the epistle of James does give a very solid refutation of your view against "works" (again, as you term it).

how much good works you/they need to do to enter heaven?

That kind of question I would deem a Pharasaic one, in the manner of the kinds of stuff Jesus in the new testament is said to have dealt with.
Such a question is just ridiculous that you think about your personal accountability in this life as merely a checklist.

The Qur'an says in Surah 2:177:
"Piety/righteousness is not to turn your faces to the east or the west; rather, piety/righteousness is [personified by] those who have faith in God and the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets, and who give their wealth, for the love of Him, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveller and the beggar, and for [the freeing of] the slaves, and maintain the prayer and gives charity, and those who fulfill their covenants, when they pledge themselves, and those who are patient in stress and distress, and in the heat of battle. They are the ones who are true [to their covenant], and it is they who are the Godwary."

It is all to do with the heart (qalb) fundamentally.

I think this passage is a good illustration of the way piety is seen in Islam, from the Qur'an in Surah 49:14-17
The Bedouins say, ‘We have faith.’ Say, ‘You do not have faith yet; rather say, “We have submitted (to God), ”for faith has not yet entered into your hearts. Yet if you obey God and His Messenger, He will not stint anything of [the reward of] your deeds. Indeed God is all-forgiving, all-merciful.’
The faithful are only those who have attained faith in God and His Messenger and then have never doubted, and who strive for God's cause with their possessions and their persons.It is they who are the truthful.
Say, ‘Will you inform God about your faith while God knows whatever there is in the heavens and whatever there is in the earth, and God has knowledge of all things?’ They count it as a favour to you that they have submitted to God.
Say, ‘Do not count it as a favour to me your submission to God. Rather it is God who has done you a favour in that He has guided you to faith, should you be truthful.

(if you are muslim)

I'm on the fence about religion but I study it all (religions) and examine what they say and what they claim. I am just someone who knows what they're talking about, who has called you out about your very ridiculous misinterpretations and misunderstandings of Islam, which simply have to be corrected.

By the way, islams soteriology and eschatology are all based on judaism and the Gospel with a “twist” courtesy of mohammads imagination and by dictation of a certain angel.

I don't care about your opinion, that doesn't give you a right to lie about Islam. You are simply very incorrect in the things you're saying.

So first you say that Islam has no eschatology, then you say that Islam's eschatology is based off Judaism and the "Gospel" (so-called) because I demonstrated that it does have a very comprehensive eschatology which doesn't differ too much from what the prior two Abrahamic religions have said regarding eschatology.

courtesy of mohammads imagination and by dictation of a certain angel.

Yes, we get that you're angsty. You still forget that within both the old and new testaments, angelic revelation is still the primary form of revelation. Even with Mt Sinai it is referred to as "the angel of the Lord/YHWH". The new testament itself contains similar kinds of revelations, even by the same angel (like to Zechariah and Elizabeth, to Mary and Joseph, etc) according to the authors of the new testament books.
Muhammad being given revelation (the last big scripture) is in no way a deviation from the trends that the Bible sets out, matter of fact if there is any truth in the Bible at all then one would expect something like Muhammad and the Qur'an to come along (seeing that most of the Bible is more story-like and written from the perspective of people after events coincided).