The Bible is full of suffering

Bubbajay

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You are making a very weak and loose eisegesis of the limited appearance of the phrase in the Book of Revelation. It is never clearly stated in reference to Jesus, leaving aside how the author of the Book of Revelation clearly distinguishes Jesus and God as completely independent subjects.

A clear scripture is like what Seekinheart referenced before:

“I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
- Isaiah 42:8

There is nothing vague or symbolic about that. God is the sole God, there is no substitute or intermediary, likewise the strong condemnation of idols in this verse (just like in the commandments we find in Exodus and Deuteronomy).



That is not an argument. Frankly it's very poor faith argumentation towards Muslims. The concepts of Angels, Prophets and Revelations are Biblical typology appearing throughout all of the Old Testament. Islam is nothing new there.
Their scripture (Qur'an) is claimed (by itself) to be the literal speech of God addressing the Arab Prophet (Muhammad), summing and correcting things, addressing Jews, Christians and Pagans etc.
Your argument can easy be used by a Jew too btw, they can just say "why should I believe what Jesus says about Moses when I have the Torah?, Jesus is not a valid source of Torah". Do you see the problem there? it's just poor and bad-faith argumentation.
Yet even at that there is a Psalm attributed to Moses, so should we reject that because David lived way after Moses?
If the Qur'an, like the Torah or other books in the Bible, is the word of God, then whatever it says is completely significant and is exceedingly important in it's value with what it conveys, you cannot just dismiss something like that while also claiming to believe that God sends prophets and revelations.
To refute something you have to have strong argumentation, and that is purely weak from an objective Abrahamic POV. We do not suddenly become Atheists when it is convenient to us for our argument. We stay Theists who believe in the supernatural and argue from that, not ridicule the things we strongly believe in ourselves.
That's Jesus speaking in Isaiah. Muslims refuse to realise this, if they did then their whole weak argument falls apart.

You are making a very weak and loose eisegesis of the limited appearance of the phrase in the Book of Revelation. It is never clearly stated in reference to Jesus, leaving aside how the author of the Book of Revelation clearly distinguishes Jesus and God as completely independent subjects.

A clear scripture is like what Seekinheart referenced before:

“I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
- Isaiah 42:8

There is nothing vague or symbolic about that. God is the sole God, there is no substitute or intermediary, likewise the strong condemnation of idols in this verse (just like in the commandments we find in Exodus and Deuteronomy).



That is not an argument. Frankly it's very poor faith argumentation towards Muslims. The concepts of Angels, Prophets and Revelations are Biblical typology appearing throughout all of the Old Testament. Islam is nothing new there.
Their scripture (Qur'an) is claimed (by itself) to be the literal speech of God addressing the Arab Prophet (Muhammad), summing and correcting things, addressing Jews, Christians and Pagans etc.
Your argument can easy be used by a Jew too btw, they can just say "why should I believe what Jesus says about Moses when I have the Torah?, Jesus is not a valid source of Torah". Do you see the problem there? it's just poor and bad-faith argumentation.
Yet even at that there is a Psalm attributed to Moses, so should we reject that because David lived way after Moses?
If the Qur'an, like the Torah or other books in the Bible, is the word of God, then whatever it says is completely significant and is exceedingly important in it's value with what it conveys, you cannot just dismiss something like that while also claiming to believe that God sends prophets and revelations.
To refute something you have to have strong argumentation, and that is purely weak from an objective Abrahamic POV. We do not suddenly become Atheists when it is convenient to us for our argument. We stay Theists who believe in the supernatural and argue from that, not ridicule the things we strongly believe in ourselves.
The main problem with Islam was known since its inception to be an offshoot of Christianity. That's why it picks and chooses OT verses while still claiming the name of Jesus. Muhammad would have never known about Jesus without the NT and from the Christians (his sister) of his time. I'll be frank and state the obvious, its a pseudo Christian cult. There wouldn't be as many Muslims as there are today if Islam wasn't forced on people by the sword. Any religion that forces people to convert with death being the consequence is a wicked false religion. I guarantee the people who were forced to convert didn't believe anything they were told about Islam, and rightfully so. The apostle Paul prophesied the coming of Islam in the book of Galatians.


Galatiajs 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

According to the bible Islam is an accursed religion.
 

Bubbajay

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According to you
Isaiah 45 literally calls Cyrus "annointed" with a lower case g. When the word Messiah or Christ is used in reference to Jesus its always an upper case letter invoking deity. Its not me, its the bible you have a problem with. Muslim apologist have nothing but denial in the end. It always makes me laugh.
 

Nikōn

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That's Jesus speaking in Isaiah.
I'm sure that this claim will go down well with Jews and any objective academics analyzing the text :D What you have done is called "shifting the goalposts". You've seen something that profoundly contradicts you, so you've just defined it in your own terms (after the fact) rather than the fact that you have to first appeal to it.

The main problem with Islam was known since its inception to be an offshoot of Christianity.
Frankly no credible academic historian takes this claim with any seriousness, it was long rejected by mainstream historical scholarship. It also goes against all available evidence within Islam itself. What this claim represents is called a polemical statement. Accusing Islam of just being a Christian heresy is an easier way to be dismissive of it than to take it seriously from an intellectual and spiritual POV.
It's in reality a very fringe view that is even rejected by most Christians, who despite rejecting it simply accept that it is another Abrahamic religion.
 

Bubbajay

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I'm sure that this claim will go down well with Jews and any objective academics analyzing the text :D What you have done is called "shifting the goalposts". You've seen something that profoundly contradicts you, so you've just defined it in your own terms (after the fact) rather than the fact that you have to first appeal to it.



Frankly no credible academic historian takes this claim with any seriousness, it was long rejected by mainstream historical scholarship. It also goes against all available evidence within Islam itself. What this claim represents is called a polemical statement. Accusing Islam of just being a Christian heresy is an easier way to be dismissive of it than to take it seriously from an intellectual and spiritual POV.
It's in reality a very fringe view that is even rejected by most Christians, who despite rejecting it simply accept that it is another Abrahamic religion.
The Quran states itself that it is a continuation of the old and new testament. Maybe you should learn a little about your own religion. The only people who say it isn't an offshoot are those who believe it. Muhammad used the old and new testament to start his own religion. He road off the coat tails of the bible to do so since there's so many contradictions between the two a book could be written about it. An example would be how the Quran states that if a person gets a divorce he can't remarry his spouse until she's married and divorced another man first. The bible states that if a man divorces his wife and she remarries, marrying her again is an abomination. So the Quran teaches the exact opposite.

I love the part of the Quran where after hearing "Gabriel the angel" Muhammad first response was he thought he was demon possessed. I guess after thinking about it awhile he thought "nah!". he should have never second guessed himself.
 

Nikōn

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I love the part of the Quran where after hearing "Gabriel the angel" Muhammad first response was he thought he was demon possessed. I guess after thinking about it awhile he thought "nah!". he should have never second guessed himself.
Which part of the Qur'an was that?


These are Angels in the Bible:








"Don not Be Afraid" (Luke 2:10 etc)

I wonder why :rolleyes:





Like a typical ignoramus, you try to derail the discussion to being about Islam rather than the Bible, of which I've given objective facts and refuted your categorical fallacies. It is clear that you are not very familiar with either the Holy Torah, nor Jesus himself.
 
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Daze

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My sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. If that covering were removed I would eventually have to face judgment for those deeds since they are already on my record.
Idk Lyfe, i would be troubled if there was a single verse in the Quran that said Jesus is god while the Bible contains over 90 verses that reject the divinity of Jesus.

I mean i don't get it, when Jesus walked EVERYONE knew him as a prophet.
And the crowds were saying, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.” (Matt 21:11)
There are multiple verses like this one in your book.

There are even Biblical verses depicting Jesus in prostration.
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father... (Matthew 26:39)
Does God submit to anyone?

Jesus literally comes out and says he is a man.
As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. (John 8:40)

Jesus often says he was sent.. (by who?)
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (John 5:30)
Who can tell God to go anywhere?

God has all encompassing knowledge.
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Mark 13:32)
Jesus does not know when judgment day begins.

I mean God literally calls Jesus his slave.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. (Acts 3:13)


How do you reconcile these truths? If there was a single verse in the Quran that raised doubt in core beliefs I'd have some serious problems.

I highly suggest you pray like Jesus did. Ask God alone to show you the truth. Believe me when i say you and you alone will carry the full brunt of your sins on judgement day as no soul will be burdened with what you do.

Seek guidance while you still breathe because none will be allowed to come back to right the wrongs.
 

Daze

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Like a typical ignoramus, you try to derail the discussion to being about Islam rather than the Bible, of which I've given objective facts and refuted your categorical fallacies. It is clear that you are not very familiar with either the Holy Torah, nor Jesus himself.
Theres alot that kid don't know. I put him on ignore a few pages back.
 
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No the term Messiah appears as early in Leviticus, long before the term son of man appears in the Old Testament.
The term in it's first form is associated with anointed priests.

if it is the Messiah priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer for the sin which he has committed a young bull without blemish to the Lord for a sin offering.
- Leviticus 4:3

(the phrase "Messiah priest" sounds awkward but that is a literal translation of the Hebrew).

The priest from among Aaron’s sons, who is Messiah to succeed him, shall offer it to the Lord as decreed for ever; the whole of it shall be burned.
- Leviticus 6:22

(again translated literally it sounds awkward in English but that's what the Hebrew says)


As for Son of Man, technically it is actually "Son Of Adam" but whatever. The phrase is used differently throughout various books of the Old Testament. In both Ezekiel and Daniel it seems to be used as reference to a person, whereas in books like Psalms it is used to refer to the people of Israel themselves.



That is not what I am saying, but I do warn against reading these texts in the superficial way that you seem to be. The texts attest to more complex elements than simply just what you say there.
Jesus claimed to be the expected Jewish Messiah yes (and there was a lot of expectation for this around the 2nd Temple Period), I never denied that, but the history of the term in the Old Testament is more far reaching than simply that.
You just denied what I said and affirmed it at the same time lol.

I said messiah is used in different contexts then you said no

Then brought up numerous ways it's used in different contexts

And looking at typology is far from superficial or reading into the scripture and understanding foreshadowing is again far from superficial it's actually much more complex than taking a word used in a certain context and then applying it to all passages.

Tell me when God said he was the light of men. Do you then discount women. It clearly meant humanity however if we apply this sort of islamic slant of exegesise the literalism in which you approach the Bible is your stumbling block to faith.

When prophecies were given such as Daniels, and many others. Joseph's dream. Although they had a strict meaning they were allegorical in nature.

it seems to me there is a conflation between hyper-allegory and hyper-literalism that people in both camps can't seem to reconcile the two presented concepts in the Bible.

Jesus spoke in parables to convey his objective truth. To deny this theme of the Bible is to deny the very nature of God.

For it is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to search it out.
 

Nikōn

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You just denied what I said and affirmed it at the same time lol.

I said messiah is used in different contexts then you said no

Then brought up numerous ways it's used in different contexts
If we are going to limit this to the Old Testament context alone, then (responding again to that post of yours) there are only two types of Messiah in the Old Testament.
In Leviticus there is the priest in the Tabernacle, which is also an 'initiatic' chain of priests initially governed by Moses.
Then there is the second form in the rest of the Old Testament after the Torah, which consists of God's appointed kings (both Davidic and also Gentiles like Cyrus) who have both authority and salvific roles (in relation to the Israelites).

The concept of Messiah we are familiar with in the New Testament emerges in extra-canonical 2nd Temple Jewish literature. To a sola scriptura person, this is completely shocking and offensive to here but it is the fact of the matter. Things being like this does not make Jesus a fraud or anything, that is not what I am saying.

When prophecies were given such as Daniels, and many others. Joseph's dream. Although they had a strict meaning they were allegorical in nature.

it seems to me there is a conflation between hyper-allegory and hyper-literalism that people in both camps can't seem to reconcile the two presented concepts in the Bible.
What you do not get is that unless you suggest fowl play with the scriptures, then the principle of non-contradiction must apply. Things that are evident and strictly doctrinal cannot be contradicted and overridden by things that are vague, symbolic and esoteric. Doing so is not scripturally logical and ultimately means that you have no standard for exegesis (making everything you state purely subjective).
As I've noticed from your posts before (and Bubba above too) you like to pigeonhold and strawman my positions because you don't like dealing with contradictions I show in problematic theologies and eschatologies. I would advise against that, it is not Christ-like.

One of the dangers in this on the extreme end is that you end like how some of the early Christians (some of them even Church Fathers and not only heretics) who interpreted the entire Old Testament as metaphor, taking none of it literally, but taking the New Testament as literal.
The very existence of such things, as well as groups like the Marcionites and the Cathars are very evident in the nature of contradictions that arise from these views.

Again, don't strawman me, my position is very vehemently that all things in exegesis must have a firm foundation in evident, clear and unambiguous passages. Passages that are more symbolic in content must not contradict firm, unambitious foundational doctrine. This is how we tell orthodoxy from heresy in the scriptural sense.
You don't like that I say this, but that doesn't make me wrong, and doesn't mean that I know the scripture less than you.

Jesus spoke in parables to convey his objective truth. To deny this theme of the Bible is to deny the very nature of God.
Yes this is true, and for Jesus' parables you may in for a rude awakening to learn that most of them aren't that ambiguous and have much historical precedent. Most of Jesus' parables are directed at, and are often very sharp and eloquent criticisms, of different issues in the Judaisms (Pharisees, Sadducees etc) of his day, as well as theological, legalistic, moral/ethical and ritualistic criticisms. Because they are parables, like the genre broadly you can apply one parable to many things, but it renders Jesus incoherent to claim that he meant things he obviously didn't.
 

Lyfe

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Idk Lyfe, i would be troubled if there was a single verse in the Quran that said Jesus is god while the Bible contains over 90 verses that reject the divinity of Jesus.

I mean i don't get it, when Jesus walked EVERYONE knew him as a prophet.
And the crowds were saying, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.” (Matt 21:11)
There are multiple verses like this one in your book.

There are even Biblical verses depicting Jesus in prostration.
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father... (Matthew 26:39)
Does God submit to anyone?

Jesus literally comes out and says he is a man.
As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. (John 8:40)

Jesus often says he was sent.. (by who?)
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (John 5:30)
Who can tell God to go anywhere?

God has all encompassing knowledge.
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Mark 13:32)
Jesus does not know when judgment day begins.

I mean God literally calls Jesus his slave.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. (Acts 3:13)


How do you reconcile these truths? If there was a single verse in the Quran that raised doubt in core beliefs I'd have some serious problems.

I highly suggest you pray like Jesus did. Ask God alone to show you the truth. Believe me when i say you and you alone will carry the full brunt of your sins on judgement day as no soul will be burdened with what you do.

Seek guidance while you still breathe because none will be allowed to come back to right the wrongs.
It was some of the people(in their ignorance) who thought Jesus was a prophet. The scripture always makes it plain who he is.

Matthew 16:13-17
King James Version


13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


You are assuming that if Jesus was God that he would have lorded his authority over everyone and not take the form of a servant. The Bible points out this error of judgment.

Philippians 2:5-11
King James Version


5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The problem is that you are being misled by preconceived notions of how you think God would interact with his creation. This was Israel's greatest stumblingblock. Jesus as the son of God humbled himself in the likeness of a servant as an example.

If God is morally perfect and the one who will ultimately judge our deeds then how do you suppose he will acquit the guilty? If he is morally perfect then he is a righteous judge who cannot judge in partiality. We all have a record of sin. If Allah is a truly moral judge he wont let your sins off the hook. He will sentence you according to everytime you have broken his law, because it is the fair and just thing to do. Nobody will stand in the judgment if they have to bear their own sin.
 

Alanantic

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You mean like astral projection?
Here's what happened to me.

When I was 4 years old, I was walking down the street and I found myself, saying out loud, "I'm really here! I'm really HERE!!" Why I thought that was so profound, I don't know. But, suddenly I experienced Life as a Dream, a Lucid Dream, and I was the Dreamer. It was like I went from being an actor on a stage lost in the part, to being in the audience. I thought about telling my parents but I knew it would be a waste of time. They thought Life was REAL. -- My first experience of Truth

About 25 years later, I had the same experience. A friend of mine dropped by with some coke and good bud. We smoked it, then just sat outside in the evening just meditating in silence. I was unbelievably relaxed. I felt myself float out of my body and I Awoke in the Dream of Life again. Just like having a lucid dream where you wake up...half way, and know you can make anything happen in the Dream. I was a musician at that time and hoped to play Oakland Coliseum one day. I knew I could make that happen! But, I was afraid of what I might become to do that...timidly, I came down and back into my body. (I have yet to play in Oakland Coliseum...)
 
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