Wearing a Mask

[Lisa]

Come on at first they said MILLIONS were going to die, then they revised that down a couple of times after the idiotic lockdown was in place which totally ruined the economy for GENERATIONS to come.

Hopefully not

 

[justjess]

Come on at first they said MILLIONS were going to die, then they revised that down a couple of times after the idiotic lockdown was in place which totally ruined the economy for GENERATIONS to come.

0.4% of Americans is 1.3 million people which was the low end of the initial estimate that you are talking about. Which was the amount who were supposedly going to die if nothing was done. So no, I actually don’t see a contradiction between that statement and a fatality rate that would cause that amount of deaths.

 

[justjess]

That’s what you meant?

No Lisa but I’m sorry I’m not going to bother explaining myself to you. If anyone wants me to explain myself they can pm me. I have zero patience for you.

the masks should be a non issue. The fact that they are an issue is a really strong sign that you and your emotions are being fucked with. Deal with it.

 

[Lisa]

No Lisa but I’m sorry I’m not going to bother explaining myself to you. If anyone wants me to explain myself they can pm me. I have zero patience for you.

the masks should be a non issue. The fact that they are an issue is a really strong sign that you and your emotions are being fucked with. Deal with it.

Perhaps it’s passed your bedtime?

 

[justjess]

so if the fatality rate wasnt the most concerning (which should be the ONLY important factor), all this ridiculous hooplah is for the speed and rate of transmission of the dreaded, terrifying "flu like symptoms"?
and youre still wearing a mask??

Do I need to say this in slow motion or something? Or are you pretending to be dense when I know for a fact you aren’t?

they got on tv for weeks and said it was ko big deal, 80% would be fine, if you were young and healthy you had nothing to worry about etc etc etc.. for weeks and that message was consistent on the right andthe left. Then the hospitals started to get over run and didn't have basic shit like ppe And they sent us all to our homes - to “slow the spread” - that was literally thereason they gave us and continued to state most people would be perfectly fine etc. If you heard something else then who’s issue is that?

I supported a three week VOLUNTARY ACTUAL shut down with comprehensive testing, not a THREE months long half assed partial “shutdown” which didn’t fix the virus at all and destroyed the economy on top of it.

but to answer your question yes it was all about the speed and rate of transmission because if you think we can’t afford what’s going on now, we most certainly could not afford over a million people dead in six weeks or for our hospital system to collapse.

but we are inept as a country and as a world so this is what we got and now we need to deal with it and in the mean time your all arguing about shut downs and masks when quite frankly that’s exactly what they want you to be doing. good job

 

[justjess]

Perhaps it’s passed your bedtime?

I’m not wasting time on someone like you. Sorry.

 

[Maes17]

I don’t think she did..she’s the one who’s talking about wearing masks..

Well it is a wearing a mask thread. We’ll keep our debates focused on that the best we can

 

[Helioform]

0.4% of Americans is 1.3 million people which was the low end of the initial estimate that you are talking about. Which was the amount who were supposedly going to die if nothing was done. So no, I actually don’t see a contradiction between that statement and a fatality rate that would cause that amount of deaths.

2.2 million dead americans was the initial estimate. And they said more than 50% of most countries would be infected. It is not even remotely as contagious as they said it was. But of course they pat themselves on the back by saying it was the lockdown which prevented that even though there is no scientific evidence for that.

 

[Aero]

I didn’t say YOU were dramatic man. Many people are acting overly dramatic though, on both sides. We aren’t all going to die, nor is wearing a mask the end of personal freedoms. Bigger things going on.

I agree that we should avoid the "slippery slope" fallacy.

Something to ponder.. if the masks power lies in its psychological association with control, and giving people a sense of control when they’ve lost their normal avenues.. why is that a problem? Organisms seek homeostasis. People seek control, balance, peace. Very few like or can even tolerate chaos.

The Jungian in me would question whether the "normal avenues" you refer to were in effect "masks" themselves. Either way, there is a lot of shadow material being projected. That is not my idea of peace, balance, or control.

If the desire to wear a mask is rooted in a deep feeling of self-preservation I say great. If it's rooted in anger, helplessness, confusion, or some morbid desire to save the world. I would argue there is a deeper problem that a mask will never fix.

 

[justjess]

I agree that we should avoid the "slippery slope" fallacy.


The Jungian in me would question whether the "normal avenues" you refer to were in effect "masks" themselves. Either way, there is a lot of shadow material being projected. That is not my idea of peace, balance, or control.

If the desire to wear a mask is rooted in a deep feeling of self-preservation I say great. If it's rooted in anger, helplessness, confusion, or some morbid desire to save the world. I would argue there is a deeper problem that a mask will never fix.

Yeah I don’t think it’s that deep. I’m pretty sure it’s just maslows second rung at work. Anything can be a “mask” but that doesn’t mean everything is. People need to feel like they have some agency over their own circumstances. You know that.

 

[justjess]

2.2 million dead americans was the initial estimate. And they said more than 50% of most countries would be infected. It is not even remotely as contagious as they said it was. But of course they pat themselves on the back by saying it was the lockdown which prevented that even though there is no scientific evidence for that.

1.2 - 2 million dead, that was the original estimate I saw, which squares with the 0.4% fatality rate. We can’t really bear out your hypothesis since there are no countries which did absolutely nothing that we can compare with. None. I don’t really see the point in arguing about it, we don’t get a say in these things and we are where we are now. Yesterday already happened. Tomorrow is what we should be worried about.

 

[Hon33]

so if the fatality rate wasnt the most concerning (which should be the ONLY important factor), all this ridiculous hooplah is for the speed and rate of transmission of the dreaded, terrifying "flu like symptoms"?
and youre still wearing a mask??

Terrifying “flu-like symptoms”?
Are you actually for real?
Do you have any real idea how this virus is affecting people?
Do you actually understand how the complications they are beginning to emerge from this virus as time goes by?
Aside from the respiratory complications, there are fears about cardiac complications, renal impairment, stroke, embolism and many more and they are just the short term problems.
We don’t actually know how it affects children but it is beginning to emerge that it may not be as simple as we think.
We have no real evidence as yet about the effects this condition may have in pregnancy. Babies who may have been infected during early pregnancy, and remember the mother may have been asymptomatic at the time, have not yet been born. Generally speaking, pregnant women are asked to shield because the risk is not fully understood. In the health service here, pregnant nurses are not allowed to work beyond 25 weeks because the risk is deemed too great to their unborn child - they don’t know enough about Covid-19 to take that risk.
While Covid-19 may have mildly unpleasant “flu-like symptoms” for a lot of people, there are a frightening number of people for whom it is not.

 

[Frank Badfinger]

We don’t actually know how

We have no real evidence

Exactly.

If you are on this site and haven't figured out that this virus is a psy-op to enact total control and tyranny (see contact tracing and forced vaccination)under the guise of a "medical crisis" , you really need to stop watching CNN.

There are several doctors, virologists, epidemiologists, immunologists that are being silenced for speaking out against the so called "official" narrative. I have posted several of those videos in this thread. Do yourself a favor and become informed as this will effect not only you, but your family and everyone you know.

COVID-19, DOCTORS SPEAK OUT, W.H.O./GREAT RESET/4IR, 5G, DIGITAL ID, VACCINE, FOOD SUPPLY, TRACKING & TRACING...

This thread is a hub for information which challenges the official narrative regarding COVID-19. This thread is about seeking out truth and searching for reality in a whirlwind of continual fear based media propaganda. It's not a political or religious thread, there is no divide and conquer...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

 

[Hon33]

If you buy some bulletproof glass that's rated for 9mm or whatever, the glass will 100% stop that bullet. Now sure, there are manufacturing defects, but we are talking about equipment built to specification. Now how many 9mm bullets can the glass stop, is another question.

Maybe I need a better example. Since apparently you are just going to grab whatever low hanging fruit you can. A tank is 100% bulletproof from small arms fire. It is simple physics here. The energy of the bullet cannot breakthrough steel or glass at a specific density. Just like the energy of a feather falling from the sky isn't going to land on a rock and break said rock. Now sure, by some random occurrence maybe the feather does break the rock, but in any case, it will be because the rock is already broken.

Absolutes in science and medicine definitely exist. And while I appreciate your anecdotal evidence to back up your position, your arguments are poorly written at best. I said your life is in your own hands, and you tried to refute that by admitting YOU choose treatment options. So I'm just wondering where your head is really at atm.

When you said "This isn’t really about masks though, is it? Risking your own health to protect your civil liberty is one thing, but risking someone else’s? " That is 100% you deploying a guilt trip, and you can try to walk it back, but it's too late.

Oh, I’m sorry my arguments aren’t well enough written (or maybe it’s constructed) for you.
Sorry where did I refute the assertion that your life is in your own hands by admitting that An individual chooses his own treatment options. If you’re talking about me asking if you would allow yourself to be treated for Covid-19, you appear to have missed the point.
That question was an attempt (clearly a poor one) to show the hypocrisy of someone who refuses to help protect others by wearing a mask, but won’t stand by their principles and leave their own recovery to chance if they become infected.
I can tell you, that when you are unconscious and on a ventilator as a result of Covid-19,you most certainly will not be in charge of your own life. If they decide that there is no way back for you because all of your organs are failing and they decide to stop treatment, with the consent of your family of course, your life is really not going to be in your own hands.
You can argue with me until you are blue in the face but there are no absolutes in medicine and science. Theoretically, there may be. However, you have by your own admission acknowledged that there are independent factors which are outside our control, that will always have the potential to interfere with the reality. If a flaw in the manufacturing process of bullet-proof glass or an armoured tank means that there is even a tiny possibility that it might fail, then it isn’t an absolute. That’s not me grasping at low-hanging fruit, that’s just reality. No matter how absolute something looks on paper, when you introduce things like the potential for human error into science, there is always a risk. I don’t know what country you are from, so I don’t know how science is taught. Here, in subjects like biology, chemistry, physics, kids learn to answer questions about control of experiments and how to maximise reliability and assess risk. Even at that basic level of understanding, they are taught that there are always elements in the practical process, which are outside our control. We can put procedures in place to minimise those risks. We can not eliminate them. You ask your bullet proof glass or armoured tank manufacturer to give you an absolute, 100% guarantee that it won’t fail and I can assure you it’s unlikely they will. They may give you a statistic that’s pretty close to 100% but it won’t be 100%. No one in their right mind would do that.
I mean if you want to take another example. Say for talks sake, we look at the burden of proof in a criminal court case, and I’m using the U.K. because that’s what I’m familiar with. The burden of proof, is beyond reasonable doubt. It is reasonable rather than all, because it can never be beyond all doubt - even when in theory it looks like it is. You may have a confession, witness statement and even video evidence of the crime being committed. In theory that proves beyond reasonable doubt who committed the crime. Is there still room for any doubt? Absolutely. Why? Because none of that is absolute proof. Thankfully, it doesn’t have to be. Witnesses can be wrong; video evidence can be tampered with; people confess to things they didn’t do.
Perhaps I’m being pedantic. It’s a really annoying characteristic of mine. It even annoys me some of the time. I just don’t suffer fools gladly, particularly when they are trying to make a fool of me and resulting to personal insults such as where is your head at and your arguments are poorly written. Perhaps I’m a bit sensitive to questions like that because I’m acutely aware of the restrictions, my acquired brain injury has on my daily life. It’s difficult when you feel unable to express yourself with as much clarity as you used to be. Nevertheless, I still feel I am more clear and rational than other people here.
Oops, am I trying to guilt trip you again? That’s really not my intention. I mean, if you’re absolutely certain of your position why would you even feel the potential to be “guilt tripped”?

 

[Hon33]

Exactly.

If you are on this site and haven't figured out that this virus is a psy-op to enact total control and tyranny (see contact tracing and forced vaccination)under the guise of a "medical crisis" , you really need to stop watching CNN.

There are several doctors, virologists, epidemiologists, immunologists that are being silenced for speaking out against the so called "official" narrative. I have posted several of those videos in this thread. Do yourself a favor and become informed as this will effect not only you, but your family and everyone you know.

COVID-19, DOCTORS SPEAK OUT, W.H.O./GREAT RESET/4IR, 5G, DIGITAL ID, VACCINE, FOOD SUPPLY, TRACKING & TRACING...

This thread is a hub for information which challenges the official narrative regarding COVID-19. This thread is about seeking out truth and searching for reality in a whirlwind of continual fear based media propaganda. It's not a political or religious thread, there is no divide and conquer...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

CNN, the American news channel? Yea, I don’t have much need to watch American news in the U.K.. I find our news programmes here to be of an altogether higher standard.
You see, I’m just not that naive to look at the world-wide evidence about Covid-19 and put it down to some kind world-wide attempt at tyranny and control.
I like to make my own decisions about things like this, based on my, albeit limited, knowledge of viruses and how they behave. My limited understanding is enough to tell me that it’s always been a possibility.

 

[Frank Badfinger]

I find our news programmes here to be of an altogether higher standard.

Yes, yes, the BBC a higher standard of propaganda.

I like to make my own decisions about things like this, based on my, albeit limited, knowledge of viruses and how they behave. My limited understanding is enough to tell me that it’s always been a possibility.

That's great. Keep on investigating the truth.

 

[Hon33]

Being logical is the opposite of dramatic.

The mask craze isn't about human rights. It's about weighing where the mask philosophy leads against what Covid-19 is doing. The virus is basically laser targetting the old folks and most vulnerable. So that is where our focus should be, and it's the reason why the mask philosophy inevitably goes nowhere.

There's no clear objective telling random scrubs to throw a mask on. It's not controlled, or laser-focused in any way shape, or form. So to me, the real question is how did this mask craze even take off? Like is it because people feel powerless? Or perhaps it's a symptom of some altered state of consciousness.

Lately, I've had this theory that there is some sort of emotional limbo that exists. Basically the countries who have handled Covid-19 well had real-world experience with SARS outbreaks. But more importantly, they were laser-focused in their response. They didn't blindly tell some spring breakers to stay home or slap a mask on.

You are right they didn’t. They implemented much more intrusive policies of track and trace - which I happen to believe was right.
In South Korea for example, people were required to download apps to their phone. When new diagnoses were made, details were posted on apps of journeys they had made, places they had been so that people could identify if they were at risk. If they were they were required to self isolate and be tested. At that point they downloaded a further app, giving them more detailed advice.
These apps are beginning to be tested in the U.K. this week.

 

[Hon33]

Yes, yes, the BBC a higher standard of propaganda.


That's great. Keep on investigating the truth.

We do have more than one channel in the U.K.. I tend to take information from them all - and other sources too; just not American news channels.
I will keep, looking at all the information and decide what the best course of action is based on that. Thanks.

 

[Aero]

Oh, I’m sorry my arguments aren’t well enough written (or maybe it’s constructed) for you.
Sorry where did I refute the assertion that your life is in your own hands by admitting that An individual chooses his own treatment options. If you’re talking about me asking if you would allow yourself to be treated for Covid-19, you appear to have missed the point.
That question was an attempt (clearly a poor one) to show the hypocrisy of someone who refuses to help protect others by wearing a mask, but won’t stand by their principles and leave their own recovery to chance if they become infected.
I can tell you, that when you are unconscious and on a ventilator as a result of Covid-19,you most certainly will not be in charge of your own life. If they decide that there is no way back for you because all of your organs are failing and they decide to stop treatment, with the consent of your family of course, your life is really not going to be in your own hands.
You can argue with me until you are blue in the face but there are no absolutes in medicine and science. Theoretically, there may be. However, you have by your own admission acknowledged that there are independent factors which are outside our control, that will always have the potential to interfere with the reality. If a flaw in the manufacturing process of bullet-proof glass or an armoured tank means that there is even a tiny possibility that it might fail, then it isn’t an absolute. That’s not me grasping at low-hanging fruit, that’s just reality. No matter how absolute something looks on paper, when you introduce things like the potential for human error into science, there is always a risk. I don’t know what country you are from, so I don’t know how science is taught. Here, in subjects like biology, chemistry, physics, kids learn to answer questions about control of experiments and how to maximise reliability and assess risk. Even at that basic level of understanding, they are taught that there are always elements in the practical process, which are outside our control. We can put procedures in place to minimise those risks. We can not eliminate them. You ask your bullet proof glass or armoured tank manufacturer to give you an absolute, 100% guarantee that it won’t fail and I can assure you it’s unlikely they will. They may give you a statistic that’s pretty close to 100% but it won’t be 100%. No one in their right mind would do that.
I mean if you want to take another example. Say for talks sake, we look at the burden of proof in a criminal court case, and I’m using the U.K. because that’s what I’m familiar with. The burden of proof, is beyond reasonable doubt. It is reasonable rather than all, because it can never be beyond all doubt - even when in theory it looks like it is. You may have a confession, witness statement and even video evidence of the crime being committed. In theory that proves beyond reasonable doubt who committed the crime. Is there still room for any doubt? Absolutely. Why? Because none of that is absolute proof. Thankfully, it doesn’t have to be. Witnesses can be wrong; video evidence can be tampered with; people confess to things they didn’t do.
Perhaps I’m being pedantic. It’s a really annoying characteristic of mine. It even annoys me some of the time. I just don’t suffer fools gladly, particularly when they are trying to make a fool of me and resulting to personal insults such as where is your head at and your arguments are poorly written. Perhaps I’m a bit sensitive to questions like that because I’m acutely aware of the restrictions, my acquired brain injury has on my daily life. It’s difficult when you feel unable to express yourself with as much clarity as you used to be. Nevertheless, I still feel I am more clear and rational than other people here.
Oops, am I trying to guilt trip you again? That’s really not my intention. I mean, if you’re absolutely certain of your position why would you even feel the potential to be “guilt tripped”?

Lol, ok well if you are going to try to appeal to hypocrisy at least don't contradict yourself. The random examples you're throwing out here amount to something called whataboutism. Like oh what about the random factor of human error? It's completely irrelevant to the topic.

Steel is harder and denser than aluminum. In any case, it always is going to be, because the physical properties of steel and aluminum are absolute. Also, if a doctor hooks you up to some anesthesia, you are going to fall asleep. There are no questions, or doubts present in these statements. Period.

It's not a personal attack to point out a contradiction. Sure I could have been nicer, but you are entering strawman land. I never said I felt guilt-tripped. I said you were trying to guilt-trip people because you are. The whole idea that a healthy guy can walk outside and potentially kill someone with a hidden disease is a guilt trip. When I call a rock, a rock it's not because of my personal feelings about the damn rock.

 

[Hon33]

Lol, ok well if you are going to try to appeal to hypocrisy at least don't contradict yourself. The random examples you're throwing out here amount to something called whataboutism. Like oh what about the random factor of human error? It's completely irrelevant to the topic.

Steel is harder and denser than aluminum. In any case, it always is going to be, because the physical properties of steel and aluminum are absolute. Also, if a doctor hooks you up to some anesthesia, you are going to fall asleep. There are no questions, or doubts present in these statements. Period.

It's not a personal attack to point out a contradiction. Sure I could have been nicer, but you are entering strawman land. I never said I felt guilt-tripped. I said you were trying to guilt-trip people because you are. The whole idea that a healthy guy can walk outside and potentially kill someone with a hidden disease is a guilt trip. When I call a rock, a rock it's not because of my personal feelings about the damn rock.

Firstly, just to be clear here, when you are talking about aluminium in comparison to steel, I’m assuming you are talking about an aluminium alloy and not the element, aluminium?
That being the case, let me tell you something you probably already know. Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. Aluminium is an alloy of aluminium and copper or manganese or zinc or magnesium or some other elements.
Yes, in theory steel and aluminium will consistently have different properties - that much is obvious. However, metal alloys are made up of combinations of elements, to produce a certain tensile strength. It is not a precise tensile strength but falls within . This is often dependent for example, on the area of the world the product is made or in the instance of aluminium, the elements which are used in manufacturing it. Therefore, despite what you may think, the process will not produce a consistent outcome, meaning it is not absolute.
Similarly, if an anaesthetist “hooks” you up to some anaesthesia you may or may not fall asleep, depending on the dose given and your size, weight, medical history etc. The dose required by individual patients, varies. It is not an exact science. What may put you to sleep, may not put someone else to sleep. There are no absolutes. There is always the potential for a patient to outside of the normal range of expectation. That is why every anaesthetist will be prepared with medication to reverse the effect of the anaesthetic, should they need to do so.
You keep criticising my arguments however, far from me entering “straw man land”, it is you who keeps making assertions that don’t stand up to scrutiny. In the process, you have managed to steer the discussion far away from the original topic.
When you understand more about science and in particular medicine, we can discuss it further.
Oh and as a point of interest, go away and search the failure of steel bridges due to flaws in the manufacturing process. That will show you how failures in the actual science, can result in the very opposite of an absolute.