Who do Muslims really worship?

[Bubbajay]

Again, I am wasting my time with you but it was used by the Byzantine Christians long before it was passed down to the Muslims. It doesn't belong to either religion.

Why is The Star and Crescent considered "The Islamic Symbol"?

The symbol was adopted by the Ottoman Empire as a secular and not a religious symbol after the conquest of Asia Minor.

historyqa.com

It doesn't matter who used it, that's what it meant then and now. Its called semiotics.

 

[Nikōn]

It doesn't matter who used it, that's what it meant then and now. Its called semiotics.

Sure but you are conflating this with theology, which would also apply to Christianity by your standards. In both cases you are committing false equivalence and a genetic fallacy to some extent (Islam, like Christianity, are not themselves to blame for the limited uses of this symbol that has occurred in political association with both religions).
Semiotics is definitely related, yes, but the way you've used the term I doubt you have even preliminary understanding of what Semiotics actually is.

 

[Daze]

Again, I am wasting my time with you but it was used by the Byzantine Christians long before it was passed down to the Muslims. It doesn't belong to either religion.

Why is The Star and Crescent considered "The Islamic Symbol"?

The symbol was adopted by the Ottoman Empire as a secular and not a religious symbol after the conquest of Asia Minor.

historyqa.com

Waste of time indeed, some people only know hate. Compare Bubba with some other Christians here.. no contest. He is not one who reminds others of Jesus. I think David pointed this out as well not too long ago.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

The meaning of the star has always been the masculine principle, and the moon the feminine principle. The fact it came from Babylon proves what Islam is, and what "god" they worship. The Sufis were right in stating that it all come down to the worship of the generative principle (sex).

So is the point of contention here that Sufi's existed before Muhammed's ascension to power?

 

[Bubbajay]

So is the point of contention here that Sufi's existed before Muhammed's ascension to power?

Not sure your point. Like Nikon stated, the same crescent moon and star was used by earlier pagan nations. In fact it was used in Arabia before Islam was invented. Me mentioning the Sufis, which is a mystical branch of Islam is they admit what it really means.

 

[Bubbajay]

Sure but you are conflating this with theology, which would also apply to Christianity by your standards. In both cases you are committing false equivalence and a genetic fallacy to some extent (Islam, like Christianity, are not themselves to blame for the limited uses of this symbol that has occurred in political association with both religions).
Semiotics is definitely related, yes, but the way you've used the term I doubt you have even preliminary understanding of what Semiotics actually is.

Semiotics is nothing more than the language of signs and symbols. Its a fancy scientific word for the study of symbology and the language that symbols make up. You truly are a pompous little twerp.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Not sure your point. Like Nikon stated, the same crescent moon and star was used by earlier pagan nations. In fact it was used in Arabia before Islam was invented. Me mentioning the Sufis, which is a mystical branch of Islam is they admit what it really means.

Acceptance of the star and crescent as a recent "pan-Islamic" symbol is essential a modern phenomenon. Perhaps it did exist in ye old-olden days, but its re-introduction as a cultural icon can be clearly traced to modern political-social movements, not anything from meaningful theological significance.

My question regarding your contentions of the Sufi-sect remains... are you stating that the Sufi-sect existed before Muhammed codefied Islam into a religion and it then adapted to Muslim sensibilities in order to survive, or that its a wholly new development?

 

[Bubbajay]

Acceptance of the star and crescent as a recent "pan-Islamic" symbol is essential a modern phenomenon. Perhaps it did exist in ye old-olden days, but its re-introduction as a cultural icon can be clearly traced to modern political-social movements, not anything from meaningful theological significance.

My question regarding your contentions of the Sufi-sect remains... are you stating that the Sufi-sect existed before Muhammed codefied Islam into a religion and it then adapted to Muslim sensibilities in order to survive, or that its a wholly new development?

Sufis believe in the perennial philosophy for the most part. Any group that believes this claims ancient origins, I nor anyone can proves their claims wrong or right.

I matters not when the signs were adopted, the fact that paganism laid claim to them previously isnt diminished.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Sufis believe in the perennial philosophy for the most part. Any group that believes this claims ancient origins, I nor anyone can proves their claims wrong or right.

I matters not when the signs were adopted, the fact that paganism laid claim to them previously isnt diminished.

Anyone can claim anything, and that still holds true for today.

So Im asking you if your contentions are stating that the Sufi order existed before codefied Islam as presented by the prophet Muhammed existed, and that they simply integrated their own pre-existing beliefs into said theological codefication... or if they were a people without a codefied belief system and then put their own spin on the newly formed religious structure of Islam?

 

[Bubbajay]

Anyne can claim anything, and that still holds true for today.

So Im asking you if your contentions are stating that the Sufi order existed before codefied Islam as presented by the prophet Muhammed existed, and that they simply integrated their own pre-existing beliefs into said theological codefication... or if they were a people without a codefied belief system and then put their own spin on the newly formed religious structure of Islam?

What if the answer is neither? What if Sufism is the real Islam as they clearly state?

 

[TempestOfTempo]

What if the answer is neither? What if Sufism is the real Islam as they clearly state?

Then they would have to somehow backup that claim which is undefinable. Unless you are a Sufi or there is one here, we can only speculate about their perspectives... but you and I are here so Im asking for simple clarification regarding your statements.

 

[Bubbajay]

Then they would have to somehow backup that claim which is undefinable. Unless you are a Sufi or there is one here, we can only speculate about their perspectives... but you and I are here so Im asking for simple clarification regarding your statements.

So basically you give two choices of an answer in which both deny the claims of the Sufis. If you don't believe my claims about the Sufis, then pick up a book and read about it.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

So basically you give two choices of an answer in which both deny the claims of the Sufis. If you don't believe my claims about the Sufis, then pick up a book and read about it.

I think its obvious why you keep answering with more questions...

 

[Bubbajay]

Please show me where I answered with a question. It all comes down to who you want to believe, the Sufis or mainstream Islam. I don't believe either. The truth more than likely falls somewhere between. You want me to answer with the two choices you gave in which both diminishes the claims of the Sufis. I don't fall for that stuff sorry.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Please show me where I answered with a question. It all comes down to who you want to believe, the Sufis or mainstream Islam. I don't believe either. The truth more than likely falls somewhere between. You want me to answer with the two choices you gave in which both diminishes the claims of the Sufis. I don't fall for that stuff sorry.

"The fact it came from Babylon proves what Islam is, and what "god" they worship. The Sufis were right in stating that it all come down to the worship of the generative principle (sex)."
You were the party clearly stating that "The Sufis were right" yet when asked for simple chronological verification to back up your claim, you produced nothing.

 

[Bubbajay]

"The fact it came from Babylon proves what Islam is, and what "god" they worship. The Sufis were right in stating that it all come down to the worship of the generative principle (sex)."
You were the party clearly stating that "The Sufis were right" yet when asked for simple chronological verification to back up your claim, you produced nothing.

It was Nikon who said it came from Babylon, I was taking his word for it. Again it does prove it, but I haven't checked to verify his claims.

The more I think about it the more I believe it to be true. Actually it is. Too much evidence when Muslim and non Muslim proofs are put together.

You may not think so, but the fact that the Muslim flags symbolism means exactly what the Suits claim it does, and the fact by Nikon that the star and moon originated in Babylon. That's pretty damning evidence. There's no doubt the star and sun have the symbolic meaning attributed by the Sufis, it has for thousands of years.

 

[AdjeYen]

The religion does not need defense and you are unlikely to find receptive ears if your remedy for getting called out on Muslims abhorrent behavior is "I know you are, but what am I?"

That's why people like you tolerate everything.
We, the Muslim brothers and sisters, refuse to be mocked. We refuse to be laughed at, refuse to allow others to mock our prophets, our religion. If I respect your beliefs, then why are you attacking me and my belief?
If you tolerate everything, then you stand for nothing. Have a nice day.

 

[Apheirox]

A main problem with Islam is the status of Jesus in it. The Muslims believe Jesus was only a prophet (and a lesser prophet than Muhammad). Yet they want us to believe God sent Jesus to us despite knowing how the ´silly Christians´ would mistake him for a divine savior being. This doesn´t make any sense. There is no reason for Jesus to have been sent and known if he was just a misunderstood prophet who would get replaced by Muhammad just a few centuries later. Moreover, the Muslims have an enormous problem explaining away the whole Bible, a book which makes it clear Jesus is the savior. In the Muslims perspective on the world, the Bible and Jesus are both massive sources of confusion, which makes no sense when they want to call him a venerated prophet.

Islam also has the problem of Christianity arising in the first place. There is no reason Christianity would rise unless the people witnessed something incredible happen with Jesus (his crucifixion and resurrection). Islam just states that the Christians were somehow all wrong, and that all the events listed in the Bible didn´t happen... yet, at the same time Muslims believe the Quran is flawless, making one wonder why Allah didn´t just send the Quran immediately rather than wait for the Bible to spawn two ´false´religions (Judaism and Christianity) first.

 

[Daze]

A main problem with Islam is the status of Jesus in it. The Muslims believe Jesus was only a prophet (and a lesser prophet than Muhammad). Yet they want us to believe God sent Jesus to us despite knowing how the ´silly Christians´ would mistake him for a divine savior being. This doesn´t make any sense. There is no reason for Jesus to have been sent and known if he was just a misunderstood prophet who would get replaced by Muhammad just a few centuries later. Moreover, the Muslims have an enormous problem explaining away the whole Bible, a book which makes it clear Jesus is the savior. In the Muslims perspective on the world, the Bible and Jesus are both massive sources of confusion, which makes no sense when they want to call him a venerated prophet.

Islam also has the problem of Christianity arising in the first place. There is no reason Christianity would rise unless the people witnessed something incredible happen with Jesus (his crucifixion and resurrection). Islam just states that the Christians were somehow all wrong, and that all the events listed in the Bible didn´t happen... yet, at the same time Muslims believe the Quran is flawless, making one wonder why Allah didn´t just send the Quran immediately rather than wait for the Bible to spawn two ´false´religions (Judaism and Christianity) first.

I wouldn't say Jesus is less then Muhammad. I don't know why you see it as some kind of competition. Is Moses greater then Noah? Is Adam better then Abraham?

Truth is not all Christians mistook Jesus for a divine being. None did when he walked while at least a few million Christian's don't today, including several on these very boards. Jesus didn't officially become "divine" until 300AD when the council of Nicaea made him so. Several 100 years after his alleged death.

I have pointed out multiple religions had 3 in 1 gods in this area and time period, as well as providing evidence of the church entertaining paganism to get new recruits.. But people don't reflect. They only follow the indoctrination, ie what their fathers worshiped.

There is no reason for Jesus to have been sent and known if he was just a misunderstood prophet who would get replaced by Muhammad just a few centuries later.

Using this logic there was no point what so ever in sending any prophet after Adam, the first man. Yet the Bible claims 144,000?
Moses was born several 100 years after Noah, yes? Then why send him at all when Noah had already done the job?



Islam has no problem with Christianity being first or Judaism for that matter. Truth be told Muslims believe Adam was a Muslim as the word literally means submission. Submission to the Almighty, alone without partners.

Yes, the Quran is unchanged, we have proof of this today you can verify yourself as copies over a millennia old have been found. However, you do raise an interesting question. Why didn't God the Father protect the Torah and Injeel? He certainly new in the very beginning of mankind they would become corrupted.This is a question i can not answer other then what is life but a test?

For those who use their God given intellect the truth has been made crystal clear from the falsehood.

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Mark 12:29)

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. (Mark 10:18)

 

[seekinheart]

I wouldn't say Jesus is less then Muhammad. I don't know why you see it as some kind of competition. Is Moses greater then Noah? Is Adam better then Abraham?

Truth is not all Christians mistook Jesus for a divine being. None did when he walked while at least a few million Christian's don't today, including several on these very boards. Jesus didn't officially become "divine" until 300AD when the council of Nicaea made him so. Several 100 years after his alleged death.

I have pointed out multiple religions had 3 in 1 gods in this area and time period, as well as providing evidence of the church entertaining paganism to get new recruits.. But people don't reflect. They only follow the indoctrination, ie what their fathers worshiped.


Using this logic there was no point what so ever in sending any prophet after Adam, the first man. Yet the Bible claims 144,000?
Moses was born several 100 years after Noah, yes? Then why send him at all when Noah had already done the job?



Islam has no problem with Christianity being first or Judaism for that matter. Truth be told Muslims believe Adam was a Muslim as the word literally means submission. Submission to the Almighty, alone without partners.

Yes, the Quran is unchanged, we have proof of this today you can verify yourself as copies over a millennia old have been found. However, you do raise an interesting question. Why didn't God the Father protect the Torah and Injeel? He certainly new in the very beginning of mankind they would become corrupted.This is a question i can not answer other then what is life but a test?

For those who use their God given intellect the truth has been made crystal clear from the falsehood.

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Mark 12:29)

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. (Mark 10:18)

Oh dear...


The whole passage in mark 10 is challenging the man's self righteousness and concept of what is good. He plays dumb with the man throughout the passage challenging his assumptions. He didn't say "I'm not good" he said why do you call me good. He's hinting that he is actually God.


It's very telling that Jesus said who do you say that I am to the disciples, he didn't proclaim who he was to them, Peter actually stated who he was and Jesus confirmed it. If the young man had said because I perceive you are the son of God. I'm sure Jesus would have praised the man but he was challenging this man's legalism and goodness in the eyes of people. Hence why he told him to sell everything he had. Which he never told others to do because he knew this man had an attachment to money and position within society.

At times Jesus told people not to mention anything about what he just did.

Ontop of that spoke in parables because he wanted people to come to there own understanding of who he truly was.

And Muslims still want him to say the three words I AM GOD! Which he did when he said he was before Abraham. Said he and the father are one.

You would have to ask yourself as a Muslim, am I simply someone who did not have ears to hear because you fit the bill very well.